The Khazars and the Jewish Question

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samsloan

2012-04-10 16:40:44 UTC

The Khazars and the Jewish Question

Sam Sloan

The Thirteenth Tribe is a ground breaking work of great importance, if
only because it has shaped the way that people think about The Jews.

It is based on the theory that European Jews, Ashkenazi Jews from
Europe, are not descendants of Abraham but rather are the remnants of
a tribe, the Khazars, that converted to Judaism in the Eighth Century.

We know little about the Khazars, but we do know for certain that they
existed and that they were Jewish. The Jews, Russians, Georgians and
Armenians all wrote about the Khazars, but the Khazars left no
literature, no books. This was perhaps because the Khazars existed
during the Dark Ages, as period from which few books survive today.

As to how the Khazars became Jewish, the story, often told is they
previously had what we call today a Pagan religion. Their King wanted
to adopt a more modern religion but he wanted to avoid the religious
wars that were going on on all sides. So, he summoned a Christian
Priest, a Jewish Rabbi and a Muslim Mullah.

He asked the Christian priest, “Which is better, the Muslims or the
Jews? The Christian replied, “The Jews are better than the Muslims.”

Then, he asked the Muslim, “Which are better, the Christians or the
Jews?” The Muslim replied, “The Jews are better than the Christians?”

Therefore, the King decided that henceforth all of his subjects would
be Jewish. He send emissaries to Baghdad to bring back great scholars
of Judaism. They came and taught the people the principles of the
religion.
It is more or less an accepted historical fact that these things
happened. However, it was believed that by the time that Genghis Khan
swept through the area in the 1220s, killing almost everybody, the
Khazars had already been wiped out. Scholars believe that the Khazars
had disappeared by the Tenth Century.

Koestler's thesis is that while the Khazars as a unified tribe may
have disappeared, their descendants survived, only that they were no
longer known as the Khazars. Instead, these people are now Eastern
European Jews and they continue to live in the same places where the
Khazars lived such as in Kiev and Odessa.

If you want to learn more about the Khazars, there are many places you
can go. There are books, magazine articles and studies devoted to
them. You can also do an Internet search that will produce many
references to the Khazars and to the question of whether the European
Jews of today are the same people as the Khazars.

I happen to believe that the theory about the Khazars in true. I will
explain why:

First, it must be said that this is a hot topic. Almost every person
who had studied and written about this subject has had an ulterior
motive. They are not seekers of the truth. They either want to prove
that the Jews now living in Israel are truly descendants of Abraham,
or else they want to prove that they are not and thus have no right to
the land there. The book was banned in Israel for many years. Although
it is often said that this book has been refuted, it has not been
refuted nor could it be. No Jewish scholar has seriously addressed the
questions raised by this book. Mostly, they just ignore it. However,
many non-religious Jews have adopted it.

The same is the case of DNA studies of this subject. For example, not
long ago a new study came out saying that it shows that all Jewish
women today are descended from four women.

This created a tremendous splash in the news, because it was said that
this proves that the Jews are a united race with a common origin.

That was until somebody did the math and figured out that these four
women all lived about five thousand years ago, which was before
Abraham lived and before Judaism came into existence. Also, the four
women probably did not live at the same time and probably did not know
each other, so this if anything proves the contrary, that the Jews are
not the same people.

Another even more recent DNA study is said to show that all Jews have
a common origin in the Middle East.

The thing wrong with this is: Not only do all European Jews have a
common origin in the Middle East, but all European people of any kind
have a common origin in the Middle East. Look at the map. In order to
walk out of Africa, you had to cross what is now Israel.

Here is my proof that Koestler's Theory (which he did not originate
but merely popularized) is most likely true: The first step is to
prove that the official story in the Bible could not be true.

The Hebrew Bible places Abraham's birth 1,948 years after the
Creation. This is roughly 3,700 years ago or 1700 BC.

Since a male generation averages 30 years, this means that Abraham
lived 123 generations ago.

If all or almost all Jews alive today are descendants of Abraham,
which is what Jewish scholars claim, then the men would all share the
same Y-chromosome DNA type or haplogroup.

Since they do not, this shows that this story is not true.

Abraham had two sons, Ismail by his servant Hagar and Isaac by his
wife Sarah. According to both the Bible and the Quran, Ismail is the
father of all Arabs and Isaac is the father of all Jews.

If true, the Arabs and the Jews would all belong to the same
haplogroup but again DNA testing shows that this is not true.

Abraham found a girl named Rebecca to be the wife of Isaac. She gave
birth to Jacob. This is where it gets interesting.

Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel, took two wives, Leah and
Rachel. They in turn gave him each of their hand maidens, Bilhah and
Zilpah. Jacob had sons by each of these four women, six sons by Leah
and two sons each by Rachel, Bilhah and Zilpah, for a total of twelve
sons in all. Since the name of Jacob had been changed to Israel, this
is the reason why the Jews are called “The children of Israel”.

Each son founded a tribe and this is why there were 12 tribes in
Israel.

The most important of these 12 sons eventually turned out to be Judah,
the 4th son of Leah. The members of the tribe of Judah are called the
Jews.

The fact that American Jews seem to ignore because is causes them some
embarrassment is that the Jews are all descended from one woman too.
Her name was Tamar. According to the Bible, she sold herself as a
prostitute to Judah.

Before he died, Jacob said that Judah would become the leader of his
people and, indeed, the Jews of today have that name because they are
of the Tribe of Judah.
Judah first had three sons: Er, Onan and Shelah. Judah took a wife for
Er named Tamar. However, Er was wicked and God killed him.
In those days, there was a custom which still exists in Arab countries
and in other countries of the Middle East that when a man dies and
leaves a widow, his next surviving brother is supposed to marry the
widow and become her husband.
Accordingly, Onan was obliged to marry Tamar, the widow of Er.
However, in such a case, the eldest son from this marriage was
considered to be not the son of the new husband, but rather the son of
the husband who died. In this way, it was thought that the seed of the
deceased man would be carried forward into the coming generation.
Onan did not like this. He did not want a child from Tamar to be the
child of his deceased brother, Er. For this reason, when Onan had sex
with Tamar, he pulled out at the last moment. Onan did not allow his
seed to go into Tamar. Instead, he spilled his seed upon the ground.
Onan did this because he not want Tamar to become pregnant.
God saw this and saw that Onan had disobeyed the will of God. This
seed is not supposed to go into the ground. Rather, it is intended by
God to go into a woman. Therefore, God struck Onan dead, too. This
made Tamar a widow a second time.
The third son was Shelah. However, Shelah was still a young boy, too
young to be married. Judah was afraid that his third son Shelah would
die, too. Therefore, he told Tamar to go back to her father's house
and wait there and when Shelah became old enough, Judah would marry
Tamar to him.
Tamar went back to her father's house and waited.
After the passage of some time, Tamer noticed that Shelah had grown
up. Nevertheless, Tamar had not been given to Shelah as a wife. Judah
had not kept his promise. Tamar was tired of waiting.
Tamar found out that Judah was going to go to Timnath to shear his
sheep. She took off her widow's garment and instead put on a veil to
cover her face. She went and sat by the road to Timnath.
Judah came walking by. Because the face of Tamar was covered, he
believed that she was a prostitute. Judah did not know that actually
this was his daughter-in-law Tamar. He asked her what was her price
for sex. She asked him how much he would give her. He said that he
would send her a kid from his flock of sheep. She then asked him to
give her something as security for this promise. She asked him for his
signet, his bracelets and his staff. Judah agreed to this. He gave
Tamar his signet, his bracelets and his staff and then had sex with
Tamar. Tamar became pregnant.
After the sex was finished, Judah left. Tamar left also. She took off
her veil and put back on her widow's clothing.
Later, Judah sent a man with a kid from his flock of sheep to give to
the woman he had seen by the road and to recover his signet, his
bracelets and his staff. However, when his messenger came to that
spot, no woman was there. He asked the men of that area what had
happened to the prostitute who had been sitting there. Those men said
that there had been no such woman. There had never been a prostitute
in that place. Judah was dismayed by this development.
Three months later, word came to Judah that his daughter-in-law had
been like a prostitute and was now pregnant. Judah ordered that Tamar
be brought before him to be burned up.
When Tamar was brought, she said to Judah, "The man who has made me
pregnant is the owner of these things." Then Tamar produced the
signet, the bracelets and the staff which belonged to Judah.
With that, Judah acknowledged that these things were his and said that
she was more righteous than he because he had not kept his promise to
her by not giving Tamar to Shelah as a wife. Therefore, Tamar was
spared.
Tamar gave birth to twins. The name of these twins were Pharez and
Zarah.
The son of Pharez was Hezron. The son of Hezron was Ram. The son of
Ram was Amminadab. The son of Amminadab was Nahshon. The son of
Nahshon was Salmon. The son of Salmon was Boaz. The son of Boaz was
Obed. The son of Obed was Jesse. The son of Jesse was David. The son
of David was Solomon. The son of Solomon was Rehoboam. The son of
Rehoboam was Abijah. The son of Abijah was Asa. The son of Asa was
Jehoshaphat. The son of Jehoshaphat was Jehoram. The son of Jehoram
was Uzziah. The son of Uzziah was Jotham. The son of Jotham was Ahaz.
The son of Ahaz was Hezekiah. The son of Hezekiah was Manasseh. The
son of Manasseh was Amon. The son of Amon was Josiah. The son of
Josiah was Jeconiah. The son of Jeconiah was Shealtiel. The son of
Shealtiel was Zerubbabel. The son of Zerubbabel was Abiud. The son of
Abiud was Eliakim. The son of Eliakim was Azor. The son of Azor was
Zadok. The son of Zadok was Achim. The son of Achim was Eliud. The son
of Eliud was Eleazar. The son of Eleazar was Matthan. The son of
Matthan was Jacob. The son of Jacob was Joseph and Joseph was the
husband of Mary the mother of Jesus.
So, from the illicit relationship between Tamar and Judah, three of
the most important people in history were born: David, Solomon and
Jesus.
This story can be found in the Bible in Genesis 38 and 49, Matthew 1
and Luke 3.
This story is important in many ways. It establishes the genealogy of
the Jewish race, because it is fair to say that all of the Jews today
are descended from Pharez and Zarah, the two bastard twin sons of
Tamar. (The only other surviving son of Judah was Shelah, about whom
nothing more is said in the Bible.)
Just as all men pass their Y-DNA to their sons, women have
Mitochondrial DNA or mtDNA which they pass on to their children, both
male and female. Since under Jewish law, a person is Jewish if his
mother is Jewish, this means that all or most Jews should carry the
MtDNA of Tamar.

This is not true either.

Although Tamar is virtually ignored by American Jews because she sold
herself as a prostitute to Judah, Russian Jews greatly respect her.
Tamara is one of the most common Russian names, although a name that
Americans rarely give to their daughters. Even hookers deserve
respect!

Although Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Tamar all lived about 3,700 years
ago, this is relatively recently in the genealogical time frame. Since
a female generation is 23 years, Tamar lived about 161 generations
ago.

It is believed that around ten thousand years ago is when most groups
had established themselves where they are today. Mass movements are
rare. Even the distance from Egypt to Israel is only a distance of 230
miles.

The traditional view, as described in older books, that what followed
was the Diaspora or “the Wandering Jew”. Ten of the twelve tribes were
lost. The rest tried to stay together. When they were driven from one
country, they would move to the next. They were carried by the Muslims
across North Africa and entered Spain by Gibraltar. In Moorish Spain,
they were treated with respect and did jobs the Muslims were
prohibited from doing, such as loaning money with interest. When
Ferdinand and Isabella took over Spain in 1492, both the Muslims and
the Jews were driven out. The Muslims went back to North Africa but
the Jews went on to France. Later, the Jews were driven out of France
and England and wound up in Germany, Poland and Russia, where they
remained until World War II, when they were either killed or driven
out by the Nazis and they finally reached The Promised Land: America!

This is the traditional view by the Jews to explain how they got to
where they are today.

However, the view of Arthur Koestler who himself was Jewish is that
none of these mass movements of people happened at all. Rather, the
Jews stayed in exactly the same place where they have been all along
because the Eastern European Jews are the Khazars. They are the same
people. Just their name has been changed.

Which is more logical: The Traditional Jewish view or Arthur
Koestler's theory?

Arthur Koestler was born a Jew in Budapest, Hungary on 5 September
1905. Like many Jews, he did not follow the religion or believe in it.
He was equally fluent in Hungarian and German. He later lived in
Palestine for five years and learned Hebrew and Yiddish. He wrote more
than forty books. By far the most famous book and the only one really
remembered is The Thirteenth Tribe.

He said that he wrote The Thirteenth Tribe because he "was convinced
that if he could prove that the bulk of Eastern European Jews (the
ancestors of today's Ashkenazim) were descended from the Khazars, the
racial basis for anti-Semitism would be removed and anti-Semitism
itself could disappear". The book however has had the opposite effect.
The book has been used by opponents of Judaism argue that most Jews
are not really Jews and thus have no right to the land of Israel. On
the other hand, non-religious Jews have accepted it.

Arthur Koestler committed suicide on 3 March 1983 in London because he
was suffering with a terminal case of Parkinson's Disease.

Sam Sloan
Bronx New York
USA
April 10, 2012

http://www.amazon.com/dp/4871876586
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/books/product.aspx?ISBN=4871876586

j***@vanderbilt.edu

2012-04-10 20:02:56 UTC

Permalink

Post by samsloan
The Khazars and the Jewish Question
Sam Sloan
The Thirteenth Tribe is a ground breaking work of great importance, if
only because it has shaped the way that people think about The Jews.
It is based on the theory that European Jews, Ashkenazi Jews from
Europe, are not descendants of Abraham but rather are the remnants of
a tribe, the Khazars, that converted to Judaism in the Eighth Century.
We know little about the Khazars, but we do know for certain that they
existed and that they were Jewish. The Jews, Russians, Georgians and
Armenians all wrote about the Khazars, but the Khazars left no
literature, no books. This was perhaps because the Khazars existed
during the Dark Ages, as period from which few books survive today.
As to how the Khazars became Jewish, the story, often told is they
previously had what we call today a Pagan religion. Their King wanted
to adopt a more modern religion but he wanted to avoid the religious
wars that were going on on all sides. So, he summoned a Christian
Priest, a Jewish Rabbi and a Muslim Mullah.
He asked the Christian priest, “Which is better, the Muslims or the
Jews? The Christian replied, “The Jews are better than the Muslims.”
Then, he asked the Muslim, “Which are better, the Christians or the
Jews?” The Muslim replied, “The Jews are better than the Christians?”
Therefore, the King decided that henceforth all of his subjects would
be Jewish. He send emissaries to Baghdad to bring back great scholars
of Judaism. They came and taught the people the principles of the
religion.
It is more or less an accepted historical fact that these things
happened. However, it was believed that by the time that Genghis Khan
swept through the area in the 1220s, killing almost everybody, the
Khazars had already been wiped out. Scholars believe that the Khazars
had disappeared by the Tenth Century.
Koestler's thesis is that while the Khazars as a unified tribe may
have disappeared, their descendants survived, only that they were no
longer known as the Khazars. Instead, these people are now Eastern
European Jews and they continue to live in the same places where the
Khazars lived such as in Kiev and Odessa.
If you want to learn more about the Khazars, there are many places you
can go. There are books, magazine articles and studies devoted to
them. You can also do an Internet search that will produce many
references to the Khazars and to the question of whether the European
Jews of today are the same people as the Khazars.
I happen to believe that the theory about the Khazars in true. I will
First, it must be said that this is a hot topic. Almost every person
who had studied and written about this subject has had an ulterior
motive. They are not seekers of the truth. They either want to prove
that the Jews now living in Israel are truly descendants of Abraham,
or else they want to prove that they are not and thus have no right to
the land there. The book was banned in Israel for many years. Although
it is often said that this book has been refuted, it has not been
refuted nor could it be. No Jewish scholar has seriously addressed the
questions raised by this book. Mostly, they just ignore it. However,
many non-religious Jews have adopted it.
The same is the case of DNA studies of this subject. For example, not
long ago a new study came out saying that it shows that all Jewish
women today are descended from four women.
This created a tremendous splash in the news, because it was said that
this proves that the Jews are a united race with a common origin.
That was until somebody did the math and figured out that these four
women all lived about five thousand years ago, which was before
Abraham lived and before Judaism came into existence. Also, the four
women probably did not live at the same time and probably did not know
each other, so this if anything proves the contrary, that the Jews are
not the same people.
Another even more recent DNA study is said to show that all Jews have
a common origin in the Middle East.
The thing wrong with this is: Not only do all European Jews have a
common origin in the Middle East, but all European people of any kind
have a common origin in the Middle East. Look at the map. In order to
walk out of Africa, you had to cross what is now Israel.
Here is my proof that Koestler's Theory (which he did not originate
but merely popularized) is most likely true: The first step is to
prove that the official story in the Bible could not be true.
The Hebrew Bible places Abraham's birth 1,948 years after the
Creation. This is roughly 3,700 years ago or 1700 BC.
Since a male generation averages 30 years, this means that Abraham
lived 123 generations ago.
If all or almost all Jews alive today are descendants of Abraham,
which is what Jewish scholars claim, then the men would all share the
same Y-chromosome DNA type or haplogroup.
Since they do not, this shows that this story is not true.
Abraham had two sons, Ismail by his servant Hagar and Isaac by his
wife Sarah. According to both the Bible and the Quran, Ismail is the
father of all Arabs and Isaac is the father of all Jews.
If true, the Arabs and the Jews would all belong to the same
haplogroup but again DNA testing shows that this is not true.
Abraham found a girl named Rebecca to be the wife of Isaac. She gave
birth to Jacob. This is where it gets interesting.
Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel, took two wives, Leah and
Rachel. They in turn gave him each of their hand maidens, Bilhah and
Zilpah. Jacob had sons by each of these four women, six sons by Leah
and two sons each by Rachel, Bilhah and Zilpah, for a total of twelve
sons in all. Since the name of Jacob had been changed to Israel, this
is the reason why the Jews are called “The children of Israel”.
Each son founded a tribe and this is why there were 12 tribes in
Israel.
The most important of these 12 sons eventually turned out to be Judah,
the 4th son of Leah. The members of the tribe of Judah are called the
Jews.
The fact that American Jews seem to ignore because is causes them some
embarrassment is that the Jews are all descended from one woman too.
Her name was Tamar. According to the Bible, she sold herself as a
prostitute to Judah.
Before he died, Jacob said that Judah would become the leader of his
people and, indeed, the Jews of today have that name because they are
of the Tribe of Judah.
Judah first had three sons: Er, Onan and Shelah. Judah took a wife for
Er named Tamar. However, Er was wicked and God killed him.
In those days, there was a custom which still exists in Arab countries
and in other countries of the Middle East that when a man dies and
leaves a widow, his next surviving brother is supposed to marry the
widow and become her husband.
Accordingly, Onan was obliged to marry Tamar, the widow of Er.
However, in such a case, the eldest son from this marriage was
considered to be not the son of the new husband, but rather the son of
the husband who died. In this way, it was thought that the seed of the
deceased man would be carried forward into the coming generation.
Onan did not like this. He did not want a child from Tamar to be the
child of his deceased brother, Er. For this reason, when Onan had sex
with Tamar, he pulled out at the last moment. Onan did not allow his
seed to go into Tamar. Instead, he spilled his seed upon the ground.
Onan did this because he not want Tamar to become pregnant.
God saw this and saw that Onan had disobeyed the will of God. This
seed is not supposed to go into the ground. Rather, it is intended by
God to go into a woman. Therefore, God struck Onan dead, too. This
made Tamar a widow a second time.
The third son was Shelah. However, Shelah was still a young boy, too
young to be married. Judah was afraid that his third son Shelah would
die, too. Therefore, he told Tamar to go back to her father's house
and wait there and when Shelah became old enough, Judah would marry
Tamar to him.
Tamar went back to her father's house and waited.
After the passage of some time, Tamer noticed that Shelah had grown
up. Nevertheless, Tamar had not been given to Shelah as a wife. Judah
had not kept his promise. Tamar was tired of waiting.
Tamar found out that Judah was going to go to Timnath to shear his
sheep. She took off her widow's garment and instead put on a veil to
cover her face. She went and sat by the road to Timnath.
Judah came walking by. Because the face of Tamar was covered, he
believed that she was a prostitute. Judah did not know that actually
this was his daughter-in-law Tamar. He asked her what was her price
for sex. She asked him how much he would give her. He said that he
would send her a kid from his flock of sheep. She then asked him to
give her something as security for this promise. She asked him for his
signet, his bracelets and his staff. Judah agreed to this. He gave
Tamar his signet, his bracelets and his staff and then had sex with
Tamar. Tamar became pregnant.
After the sex was finished, Judah left. Tamar left also. She took off
her veil and put back on her widow's clothing.
Later, Judah sent a man with a kid from his flock of sheep to give to
the woman he had seen by the road and to recover his signet, his
bracelets and his staff. However, when his messenger came to that
spot, no woman was there. He asked the men of that area what had
happened to the prostitute who had been sitting there. Those men said
that there had been no such woman. There had never been a prostitute
in that place. Judah was dismayed by this development.
Three months later, word came to Judah that his daughter-in-law had
been like a prostitute and was now pregnant. Judah ordered that Tamar
be brought before him to be burned up.
When Tamar was brought, she said to Judah, "The man who has made me
pregnant is the owner of these things." Then Tamar produced the
signet, the bracelets and the staff which belonged to Judah.
With that, Judah acknowledged that these things were his and said that
she was more righteous than he because he had not kept his promise to
her by not giving Tamar to Shelah as a wife. Therefore, Tamar was
spared.
Tamar gave birth to twins. The name of these twins were Pharez and
Zarah.
The son of Pharez was Hezron. The son of Hezron was Ram. The son of
Ram was Amminadab. The son of Amminadab was Nahshon. The son of
Nahshon was Salmon. The son of Salmon was Boaz. The son of Boaz was
Obed. The son of Obed was Jesse. The son of Jesse was David. The son
of David was Solomon. The son of Solomon was Rehoboam. The son of
Rehoboam was Abijah. The son of Abijah was Asa. The son of Asa was
Jehoshaphat. The son of Jehoshaphat was Jehoram. The son of Jehoram
was Uzziah. The son of Uzziah was Jotham. The son of Jotham was Ahaz.
The son of Ahaz was Hezekiah. The son of Hezekiah was Manasseh. The
son of Manasseh was Amon. The son of Amon was Josiah. The son of
Josiah was Jeconiah. The son of Jeconiah was Shealtiel. The son of
Shealtiel was Zerubbabel. The son of Zerubbabel was Abiud. The son of
Abiud was Eliakim. The son of Eliakim was Azor. The son of Azor was
Zadok. The son of Zadok was Achim. The son of Achim was Eliud. The son
of Eliud was Eleazar. The son of Eleazar was Matthan. The son of
Matthan was Jacob. The son of Jacob was Joseph and Joseph was the
husband of Mary the mother of Jesus.
So, from the illicit relationship between Tamar and Judah, three of
the most important people in history were born: David, Solomon and
Jesus.
This story can be found in the Bible in Genesis 38 and 49, Matthew 1
and Luke 3.
This story is important in many ways. It establishes the genealogy of
the Jewish race, because it is fair to say that all of the Jews today
are descended from Pharez and Zarah, the two bastard twin sons of
Tamar. (The only other surviving son of Judah was Shelah, about whom
nothing more is said in the Bible.)
Just as all men pass their Y-DNA to their sons, women have
Mitochondrial DNA or mtDNA which they pass on to their children, both
male and female. Since under Jewish law, a person is Jewish if his
mother is Jewish, this means that all or most Jews should carry the
MtDNA of Tamar.
This is not true either.
Although Tamar is virtually ignored by American Jews because she sold
herself as a prostitute to Judah, Russian Jews greatly respect her.
Tamara is one of the most common Russian names, although a name that
Americans rarely give to their daughters. Even hookers deserve
respect!
Although Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Tamar all lived about 3,700 years
ago, this is relatively recently in the genealogical time frame. Since
a female generation is 23 years, Tamar lived about 161 generations
ago.
It is believed that around ten thousand years ago is when most groups
had established themselves where they are today. Mass movements are
rare. Even the distance from Egypt to Israel is only a distance of 230
miles.
The traditional view, as described in older books, that what followed
was the Diaspora or “the Wandering Jew”. Ten of the twelve tribes were
lost. The rest tried to stay together. When they were driven from one
country, they would move to the next. They were carried by the Muslims
across North Africa and entered Spain by Gibraltar. In Moorish Spain,
they were treated with respect and did jobs the Muslims were
prohibited from doing, such as loaning money with interest. When
Ferdinand and Isabella took over Spain in 1492, both the Muslims and
the Jews were driven out. The Muslims went back to North Africa but
the Jews went on to France. Later, the Jews were driven out of France
and England and wound up in Germany, Poland and Russia, where they
remained until World War II, when they were either killed or driven
out by the Nazis and they finally reached The Promised Land: America!
This is the traditional view by the Jews to explain how they got to
where they are today.
However, the view of Arthur Koestler who himself was Jewish is that
none of these mass movements of people happened at all. Rather, the
Jews stayed in exactly the same place where they have been all along
because the Eastern European Jews are the Khazars. They are the same
people. Just their name has been changed.
Which is more logical: The Traditional Jewish view or Arthur
Koestler's theory?
Arthur Koestler was born a Jew in Budapest, Hungary on 5 September
1905. Like many Jews, he did not follow the religion or believe in it.
He was equally fluent in Hungarian and German. He later lived in
Palestine for five years and learned Hebrew and Yiddish. He wrote more
than forty books. By far the most famous book and the only one really
remembered is The Thirteenth Tribe.
He said that he wrote The Thirteenth Tribe because he "was convinced
that if he could prove that the bulk of Eastern European Jews (the
ancestors of today's Ashkenazim) were descended from the Khazars, the
racial basis for anti-Semitism would be removed and anti-Semitism
itself could disappear". The book however has had the opposite effect.
The book has been used by opponents of Judaism argue that most Jews
are not really Jews and thus have no right to the land of Israel. On
the other hand, non-religious Jews have accepted it.
Arthur Koestler committed suicide on 3 March 1983 in London because he
was suffering with a terminal case of Parkinson's Disease.
Sam Sloan
Bronx New York
USA
April 10, 2012
http://www.amazon.com/dp/4871876586http://search.barnesandnoble.com/books/product.aspx?ISBN=4871876586

It is hard to say what the silliest thing in this post is. Beyond the
main subject of the post, there is the notion that this is by far
Koestler's most famous and important book, as opposed to the classic
Darkness at Noon, is rather hard to swallow.

I am impressed with using biblical literalism as convincing evidence,
such as the precise date of Abraham or the story of Tamar. This is
very 19th century; I have a quote on the origin of chess which gives a
precise date which supposedly corresponds to the Battle of Troy, the
same article giving an exact date for the invention of wine because
the date of Noah's Ark was precisely calculated. I have never met
anyone who still openly declared such things as true, and I live in
Nashville. Sam, how old do you think dinosaurs are? Newsflash - some
evidence has come in that the bible may not be taken as socialist
realism.

As to the theory in general, I have no particular opinion; although I
am myself of Ashkanazic descent, my DNA is not particularly important
to me. Although I am very much an admirer of Koestler, he is not the
person I would turn to for finding out answers to such a question. I
have heard vaguely about the "genetic bottleneck" for Ashkenazi Jews,
which is given as an explanation for certain rare diseases being much
more common within the group, and it is mildly interesting to
speculate about where it comes from; nowadays, one would look at the
DNA itself as giving the best clues. Koestler's book may be worth
reading, but your bizarre summary is hardly an effective argument for
reading it; if these were really the arguments Koestler was using, I
would dismiss it as the ramblings of a nut.

Jerry Spinrad

samsloan

2012-04-10 20:46:10 UTC

Permalink

http://www.amazon.com/dp/4871876586
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/books/product.aspx?ISBN=4871876586

Post by j***@vanderbilt.edu
It is hard to say what the silliest thing in this post is. Beyond the
main subject of the post, there is the notion that this is by far
Koestler's most famous and important book, as opposed to the classic
Darkness at Noon, is rather hard to swallow.
I am impressed with using biblical literalism as convincing evidence,
such as the precise date of Abraham or the story of Tamar. This is
very 19th century; I have a quote on the origin of chess which gives a
precise date which supposedly corresponds to the Battle of Troy, the
same article giving an exact date for the invention of wine because
the date of Noah's Ark was precisely calculated. I have never met
anyone who still openly declared such things as true, and I live in
Nashville. Sam, how old do you think dinosaurs are? Newsflash - some
evidence has come in that the bible may not be taken as socialist
realism.
As to the theory in general, I have no particular opinion; although I
am myself of Ashkanazic descent, my DNA is not particularly important
to me. Although I am very much an admirer of Koestler, he is not the
person I would turn to for finding out answers to such a question. I
have heard vaguely about the "genetic bottleneck" for Ashkenazi Jews,
which is given as an explanation for certain rare diseases being much
more common within the group, and it is mildly interesting to
speculate about where it comes from; nowadays, one would look at the
DNA itself as giving the best clues. Koestler's book may be worth
reading, but your bizarre summary is hardly an effective argument for
reading it; if these were really the arguments Koestler was using, I
would dismiss it as the ramblings of a nut.
Jerry Spinrad

Thank you for your comments.

But what point are you trying to make by saying that you are from
Nashville, the headquarters to Secular Humanism?

I am from Lynchburg Virginia, the place where the really nutty nuts
come from.

The place where they say that the kidnapping of my daughter Shamema
was justified by God and ordained and indeed commanded by Jesus.

If you have never met anybody who says that the Bible is exactly word-
for-word true, than you have not met the religious screwballs that I
have had to deal with every day, because almost everybody in Lynchburg
says that.

In Lynchburg, they say that the dinosaurs lived 4,000 years ago and as
proof they show "Dinosaur prints have been found along with human
footprints".

http://www.anusha.com/creation.htm

Where do you think the word "Lynch" came from anyway?

The Real Sam Sloan

Yusuf B Gursey

2012-04-10 21:36:28 UTC

Permalink

it contains some factual material, but then tries to overprove its
point by making mistakes. Ashkenazic Jews are only thought to have 10%
or so Khazar DNA, but particularly the Levites among them show
divergences from other Jewish DNA. OTOH they tend to be more divergent
from most other Jewish populations. there were more scholarly studies
on the Khazars before, and there contninue to be more.

Post by samsloan
It is based on the theory that European Jews, Ashkenazi Jews from
Europe, are not descendants of Abraham but rather are the remnants of
a tribe, the Khazars, that converted to Judaism in the Eighth Century.
We know little about the Khazars, but we do know for certain that they
existed and that they were Jewish. The Jews, Russians, Georgians and
Armenians all wrote about the Khazars, but the Khazars left no
literature, no books. This was perhaps because the Khazars existed
during the Dark Ages, as period from which few books survive today.
As to how the Khazars became Jewish, the story, often told is they
previously had what we call today a Pagan religion. Their King wanted
to adopt a more modern religion but he wanted to avoid the religious
wars that were going on on all sides. So, he summoned a Christian
Priest, a Jewish Rabbi and a Muslim Mullah.
He asked the Christian priest, “Which is better, the Muslims or the
Jews? The Christian replied, “The Jews are better than the Muslims.”
Then, he asked the Muslim, “Which are better, the Christians or the
Jews?” The Muslim replied, “The Jews are better than the Christians?”
Therefore, the King decided that henceforth all of his subjects would
be Jewish. He send emissaries to Baghdad to bring back great scholars
of Judaism. They came and taught the people the principles of the
religion.
It is more or less an accepted historical fact that these things
happened. However, it was believed that by the time that Genghis Khan
swept through the area in the 1220s, killing almost everybody, the
Khazars had already been wiped out. Scholars believe that the Khazars
had disappeared by the Tenth Century.
Koestler's thesis is that while the Khazars as a unified tribe may
have disappeared, their descendants survived, only that they were no
longer known as the Khazars. Instead, these people are now Eastern
European Jews and they continue to live in the same places where the
Khazars lived such as in Kiev and Odessa.
If you want to learn more about the Khazars, there are many places you
can go. There are books, magazine articles and studies devoted to
them. You can also do an Internet search that will produce many
references to the Khazars and to the question of whether the European
Jews of today are the same people as the Khazars.
I happen to believe that the theory about the Khazars in true. I will
First, it must be said that this is a hot topic. Almost every person
who had studied and written about this subject has had an ulterior
motive. They are not seekers of the truth. They either want to prove
that the Jews now living in Israel are truly descendants of Abraham,
or else they want to prove that they are not and thus have no right to
the land there. The book was banned in Israel for many years. Although
it is often said that this book has been refuted, it has not been
refuted nor could it be. No Jewish scholar has seriously addressed the
questions raised by this book. Mostly, they just ignore it. However,
many non-religious Jews have adopted it.
The same is the case of DNA studies of this subject. For example, not
long ago a new study came out saying that it shows that all Jewish
women today are descended from four women.
This created a tremendous splash in the news, because it was said that
this proves that the Jews are a united race with a common origin.
That was until somebody did the math and figured out that these four
women all lived about five thousand years ago, which was before
Abraham lived and before Judaism came into existence. Also, the four
women probably did not live at the same time and probably did not know
each other, so this if anything proves the contrary, that the Jews are
not the same people.
Another even more recent DNA study is said to show that all Jews have
a common origin in the Middle East.
The thing wrong with this is: Not only do all European Jews have a
common origin in the Middle East, but all European people of any kind
have a common origin in the Middle East. Look at the map. In order to
walk out of Africa, you had to cross what is now Israel.

dsharavi

2012-04-10 22:45:49 UTC

Permalink

It's a pseudo-academic PoS which has been thoroughly debunked not only
by a reading of history, but by several decades of genetic research.

In its science section of May 10th, 2000, the New York Times carried
an article about DNA testing on certain markers in the Y chromosome
which are present in the majority of Jews in ALL communities --
Sephardi, Ashkenazic, Mizrachi. The article itself stated that these
tests finally disprove notions that the majority of Ashkenazic Jews
descend from Khazar converts. In fact, studies show that the number of
Jews who descend from converts is astonishingly small -- less than
even the most Orthodox Jews would have assumed.

There's nothing "less valid" about one's Jewishness in descent from
converts, so novelist Koestler's notion doesn't hold on that point,
too.

Now that the book has been so conclusively proven wrong, it should be
reprinted with an appropriate disclaimer. And antisemites/fakestinians
should move on and find another dead horse to beat.

Bill

2012-04-10 23:02:27 UTC

Permalink

In article <0a3e86d0-7c40-4251-92d6-
***@t16g2000yqt.googlegroups.com>, ***@hotmail.com
says...

Post by dsharavi

It's a pseudo-academic PoS which has been thoroughly debunked not only
by a reading of history, but by several decades of genetic research.
In its science section of May 10th, 2000, the New York Times carried
an article about DNA testing on certain markers in the Y chromosome
which are present in the majority of Jews in ALL communities --
Sephardi, Ashkenazic, Mizrachi. The article itself stated that these
tests finally disprove notions that the majority of Ashkenazic Jews
descend from Khazar converts. In fact, studies show that the number of
Jews who descend from converts is astonishingly small -- less than
even the most Orthodox Jews would have assumed.
There's nothing "less valid" about one's Jewishness in descent from
converts, so novelist Koestler's notion doesn't hold on that point,
too.
Now that the book has been so conclusively proven wrong, it should be
reprinted with an appropriate disclaimer. And antisemites/fakestinians
should move on and find another dead horse to beat.

There area actually two sides to this one.

On the one hand there's the 'usual suspects' screaming that Jews have no
homeland, and so 'Will they please stand still so we can get a decent
shot at them', prior to taking everything they own.

They can invariably be discounted as maniacs and anti-Semites.

The others are the 'Jewish atheists' like Koestler and Schlomo Sand who
are searching for some form of non religious Jewish identity because,
well, they're atheists who object to being picked on as Jewish and
would like some reason to hit back that isn't 'But I'm not Jewish, I
don't believe in it' because that excuse never kept the cossacks away or
saved anyone from the gas chambers.

--
William Black

When you hear the words 'Our people are our greatest asset' then it's
time to leave.

samsloan

2012-04-10 23:00:43 UTC

Permalink

Post by dsharavi

It's a pseudo-academic PoS which has been thoroughly debunked not only
by a reading of history, but by several decades of genetic research.
In its science section of May 10th, 2000, the New York Times carried
an article about DNA testing on certain markers in the Y chromosome
which are present in the majority of Jews in ALL communities --
Sephardi, Ashkenazic, Mizrachi. The article itself stated that these
tests finally disprove notions that the majority of Ashkenazic Jews
descend from Khazar converts. In fact, studies show that the number of
Jews who descend from converts is astonishingly small -- less than
even the most Orthodox Jews would have assumed.
There's nothing "less valid" about one's Jewishness in descent from
converts, so novelist Koestler's notion doesn't hold on that point,
too.
Now that the book has been so conclusively proven wrong, it should be
reprinted with an appropriate disclaimer. And antisemites/fakestinians
should move on and find another dead horse to beat.

Perhaps you are referring to this article here, that says much the
same thing:

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2010/06/tracing-the-roots-of-jewishness.html

Things seem to be going fine until the last paragraph which debunks
the whole conclusion and says that the Jews are a mixture with a
complex history.

Sam Sloan

drahcir

2012-04-11 14:46:06 UTC

Permalink

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 16:00:43 -0700 (PDT), samsloan

Post by samsloan

Post by dsharavi

It's a pseudo-academic PoS which has been thoroughly debunked not only
by a reading of history, but by several decades of genetic research.
In its science section of May 10th, 2000, the New York Times carried
an article about DNA testing on certain markers in the Y chromosome
which are present in the majority of Jews in ALL communities --
Sephardi, Ashkenazic, Mizrachi. The article itself stated that these
tests finally disprove notions that the majority of Ashkenazic Jews
descend from Khazar converts. In fact, studies show that the number of
Jews who descend from converts is astonishingly small -- less than
even the most Orthodox Jews would have assumed.
There's nothing "less valid" about one's Jewishness in descent from
converts, so novelist Koestler's notion doesn't hold on that point,
too.
Now that the book has been so conclusively proven wrong, it should be
reprinted with an appropriate disclaimer. And antisemites/fakestinians
should move on and find another dead horse to beat.

Perhaps you are referring to this article here, that says much the
http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2010/06/tracing-the-roots-of-jewishness.html
Things seem to be going fine until the last paragraph which debunks
the whole conclusion and says that the Jews are a mixture with a
complex history.
Sam Sloan

Probably reading comprehension is not your forte. No one expects that
a population immersed into another population(s) for 2000 years will
remain pure, and no one has ever made that claim. There is always
going to be intermarriage. The point is that, to a very substantial
degree, all Jews are genetically traceable back to the ancient middle
east, not to Khazars, which MAY account for SOME SMALL % of DNA of
SOME Ashkenazim. Translation: the book your original post relies on is
crap. Admixture is totally irrelevant.

Yusuf B Gursey

2012-04-11 07:22:22 UTC

Permalink

Post by samsloan
The Khazars and the Jewish Question
Sam Sloan
Abraham had two sons, Ismail by his servant Hagar and Isaac by his
wife Sarah. According to both the Bible and the Quran, Ismail is the
father of all Arabs and Isaac is the father of all Jews.

the Qur'an does not claim that Ishmael (Ismail in Arabic) is the
ancestor of all the Arabs. in fact, the Qur'an has very little
narative at all. it does claim that Jacob (Israel) is the ancestor of
the Jews as it calls them Banu Israil (banu: 'isra:'i:l "Children of
Israel") but also uses the term Yahud (yahu:d) "Jews". later Arab
commentators regarded the first term as denoting ancestry and the
other religion, as they knew that Yemeni and Arabian Jews were
converts.

as for Ishmael, Arabs divided the Arabs into "Southern" and "Northern"
Arabs and they regarded the "Southern" arabs as the true Arabs, and
the Northern tribes were regarded as "Arabized". Ishmael was regarded
as the ancestor of the Northern Arabs, and Arab tradition says that he
learned Arabic from the Arab tribe of Jurhum. Muhammad was regarded as
a descendant of Ishmael.

it was Greek and other Christian sources that called the Arabs
Ishmaelites.

Post by samsloan
If true, the Arabs and the Jews would all belong to the same
haplogroup but again DNA testing shows that this is not true.

SolomonW

2012-04-11 15:44:20 UTC